Transformational Guide Panel with Ben and Danielle === [00:00:00] Welcome back to the show. You know if you've been around here for a little while that I love to do tests and experiments, and this episode is no exception. Instead of one guest today, I've got two, and all three of us share the same primary archetype, which is transformational guide. My guests are Danielle Bornowski , and Ben Patton. Both of them have spent a lot of time with my work, and I wanted to hear how the same wiring shows up in two very different businesses and people as well as in mine. One thing before we start. We were already deep into a real good conversation when I realized I hadn't hit record, which is about the most transformational guide thing that I think could have happened. So when you hear me start in a minute, you're joining us mid-thought with me talking about exactly that, and then everyone gets a proper introduction about a minute in. Here's the conversation Macy Robison: I say this to transformational guides a lot, that having something recording what you're saying is so critical [00:01:00] because people always say, "Oh, that was great, could you say that again?" And I'm always like, "No. Couldn't if I tried." Like, couldn't if I tried. If you're not watching the video, both Ben and Danielle were shaking their heads with me like, "Nope, can't do it, sorry." So we'll get to the introductions. We were talking before we started recording and everybody was saying smart things, and so we just relearned the lesson of always be recording if possible when you have this archetype of transformational guide. So I'm excited about this episode. This is my primary archetype that we're talking about today, as well as my two guests, Danielle and Ben, and I'll have them introduce themselves and talk a little bit about what they do. But what I hope you, as you're listening, are hearing, whether transformational guide is your archetype or whether you have a different one, that there are really different ways that this shows up for different people. So knowing what your primary archetype on the assessment is is great and it's one thing, but digging in a little bit deeper and having some conversations around it is a really great way to make this information more useful. So, podcast listeners know who I am [00:02:00] and know that I'm a transformational guide 'cause I talk about it a lot. But Danielle, let me have you introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about what you do and who you serve, and then Ben, same question. Danielle Boronowski: Yeah. My name's Danielle Bornowski. I am the founder and CEO of DQB Strategies, and, that is a company that's evolved over the last couple of years as I have leaned into who I am and how I am wired and how I can best s- show up and serve, my audience. But my favorite place to be is in the marketing and sales strategy space. So where are you trying to go? What is the business you're trying to build? What are the things not only that you need to do to, to get there, but to not do to get there? So I love to tell my clients to write their own rules, um, and build a business that works for them Macy Robison: I love that. Okay, and Ben, same question Ben Patton: Ben Patton. And, as we said before the call, I, I actually just left my full-time job as a, uh, software content engineer for [00:03:00] a AI infrastructure company out of San Francisco. And I am now moving into the next stage, which we are probably gonna talk about on this as we figure it out. So Macy Robison: Yes. I didn't l- I didn't know that until today, but I know that's something you were circling around and, just excited to hear a little bit more about that decision. you and I met, I guess, at the end of last year, I think it was. Like, and I know the assessment crossed your path, and you took it, and you ended up doing an archetype strategy call with me, but would love to hear a little bit more about what you were trying to figure out when the assessment crossed your path, Ben, and then I'll ask the same question to Danielle. Ben Patton: so the thing that resonated with me most from your messaging, and how you, through your podcast and just where I had heard, uh, I think it was probably in John Meese's community, um, uh, was I had always tried to do... Well, at the time, I was actually trying to do courses for tech, tech work, uh, trying to teach people, [00:04:00] and I've done three of those, and at the end of each one, I feel like I need to take a year off and do nothing. Uh, I've just s- it's wiped me so much. Uh, and we connected originally over Working Genius language, and then I took your assessment, and, um, that gave me, clarity, yes, but almost a, a freedom to realize, "Oh, this is what I actually like doing with people, and there's space for it in the world," and that's the transformational guide, deep conversations with people. Macy Robison: I remember talking about that. It's just, like, one of the th- uh, I think things that often comes up in these conversations when people are trying to figure some of this out and they take the assessment is, "Well, this is the thing that I do for free. This is the thing that I'm really great at. This is the thing that I naturally show up in." and I think we'll talk about that a little bit more, but I know that was something that, that we, we talked about. And, and I think sometimes it's a permission slip to lean into the thing that you're really great at, and I love hearing that you've done [00:05:00] that. Awesome. How about you, Danielle? What were you... I mean, you and I have known each other a long time through StoryBrand, and we've been in some groups together, but, taking the assessment, what was it you were trying to figure out when you took it, and what, what have you figured out since, I guess? Danielle Boronowski: Well, I think that, um, as a transformational guide, Macy, you drop wisdom nuggets everywhere you go. And so anything that you put out, I'm like, "I'm in." I don't know what it is. I, I don't... You know, like, I just wanna be a part of that. Um, and so when you, um, introduced the, the assessment, um, I took it and was blown away by how it articulated things about me. I've always called myself quirky. and I think it was just a really cool articulation and, and recognition for how I build things. And, and part of it, I think, was permission giving. the world has an idea of the perfect strategy for b- you know, business plan, a marketing strat, all of those things. And, I feel [00:06:00] like I was, had been going through encountering some resistance, from some of that sort of influence and being able to say, to have that permission to say, "This is what is..." It's not just fun or something that I get to do as part of my business that lights me up, and I just get to add in 'cause I enjoy it. But, like, I can actually make that the core part of how I build my business and how I show up, and it will work out for me, in that way. And so I think that was a really cool realization when I was looking through my archetype results. Um, and just e- every time I come back to it, you know, you sort of get in a, in a grind and a habit, but every time you come back to it, it's just this fri- I mean, it's, it's relevant in a new way, depending on whatever season of life or season of business you're in, I think. And that's what's really, It's, it's kinda, it's a relief to know that I can, "Oh, oh, you know, like, this is where I need to be, and this is where I need to focus my time and my energy." Macy Robison: I love that you said that, 'cause I, I think, you know, as I continue to have these conversations, [00:07:00] like I'm not always gonna share the primary archetype that we're talking about that day, but I was saying actually to a client this morning, one of the things that I think is important when you're the face of your business is trying to walk your talk and try to be an example of the thing you teach, and this in particular gets very meta and gets me into a loop sometimes of like, like you just said, Danielle, when things feel stuck, I have to go back and revisit the thing that I'm teaching to, to get myself unstuck. And very often it is around am I getting the opportunity to have conversations with people? Am I putting myself in proximity where, I can guide some sort of transformation through a conversation, or is that something I'm talking about? Like, it's really just coming back to this again and again and realizing that that's just an important part of the specific signal that I send and, and what it looks like for me. But Danielle, I wanna keep kind of pulling that thread a little bit 'cause you, you said before we started recording, that revisiting that wiring has been [00:08:00] helpful. For you, like you're a strategic advisor as well as a transformational guide in terms of that being the second one. and I would love to talk about that a little bit in terms of some of the things you're uncovering right now, and what's, what's worked for you in the past, what's working for you now. Because you said something about being in conversation with people, getting an opportunity to invite them in and what feels effortless, and would just love to kind of hear a little bit about that pattern you've been tracking as it relates to your archetypes. Danielle Boronowski: so I, I had a call with somebody last week. It was kind of a one-on-one introduction, uh, connection. And as we were talking and getting to know each other and each other's businesses, the person I was talking to just-- it seemed like she was a little bit stuck on some things. So I asked some questions, you know, like, "Who, who are you trying to serve? How can, how can I be of service to you? Who is your ideal person? What are they struggling with? Who should I be referring you to?" And as I heard her answer those questions, I could pick up... I mean, this is, this is my lane, right? So I could pick up on some things, and I said, "Can I just-- I've got some thoughts and some questions and some feedback. Uh, is [00:09:00] that okay if I share it with you?" And she was like, "Yeah, sure." And so I just pulled a couple of strings out for her and said, you know, "I, I wouldn't focus my time right there. Like, the-- I, I think that what I'm hearing from you is this is what people are encountering. You need to lean into that." And just gave some, some, insights like that. And she made some comment about, uh, you know, like, "I had no idea this is how this call was gonna go because it was just a, just to get to know you." And I didn't either. and she ended up... I, you know, she's like, "I, I think we might need to work together." And I was like, I mean, clear signal, right? If anybody wanted someone to, to do business, right? and so I was able to say, "Hey, I've got this entry-level offer. It's just hourly advisory sessions. You're borrowing my brain. You're asking questions. What are you getting stuck on? Let me help you with that." I said, "I don't know if you need a full strategy, you know, my, my larger offer, but I would love to start with this with you if, if you're interested." And she was like, "Yes." And so I was reflecting, over the next couple of days. , I was starting to think about kids going back to school and what does that look like and, and what does my pipeline look like? [00:10:00] And thinking about, you know, what are the things that have gone really well? Who are... Like, I wanna have more of these kinds of conversations with amazing people. That's what lights me up. And how do I find the ones that are really easy, like this one last week, where I got to meet someone super cool. I got to show up in my transformational guide, strategic advisor genius, and then very easily be able to say, "Hey, I've got this offer to help you. Are you interested?" Like, how do I get more of that? and so that is-- that's the question that my COO and I are sitting with right now. Like, how... Yeah, so that's what I need, is I need conversations with good people where I can show up exactly in this way as I'm wired, and then it's a natural handoff because who likes to s- who-- nobody likes to sell. But when it can be a, an, an easy invitation to work together, that's, that's what I want more of. Macy Robison: That's what I love about what you did. I think so often one of the things that happens both with Transformational Guide and Strategic Advisor, especially if it's a high score, it's so easy that we sometimes give away so much value that they don't hire us. [00:11:00] They're like, "Oh, I got what I needed and I'm out of here," or we forget to make the invitation, and you did a really good job of asking for permission and, and presenting the next step to work forward, like to move forward and work with you as an invitation. But I love that you gave yourself a chance to kind of step away, examine what was working, and now it's like, "Great, I know what to go after and test," and it gives you some constraints to move forward with. I think that's really, really exciting, um, especially if it feels easy. Like none of this has to be hard. Danielle Boronowski: I think that's something that you are so good, Macy, at reminding us is like, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be hard. When it is the easiest, it's the... When it's the most fun, it's the easiest and we have the most abundance and success. And a- again, I think that's one of the, the cool and powerful things about the archetypes is find yours and then let it be easy and let it, let it be fun Macy Robison: I love that so much. Ben, I'd love to talk to you about that too, because you, have [00:12:00] Transformational Guide, but it's even a higher score if we look at the raw scores behind the scenes. Um, it's 64%, and, um, it's kind of out there by itself. You've got Experienced Facilitator next, which is also about transformation and helping people move from point A to point B. but would love to hear a little bit more about your f- your first reaction to that archetype and some of the decisions that you've made, you know, as you've moved from, "I'm working for this company full-time," to now a few months later, you're stepping into this, this new, s- phase of your own business and your own, you know, ability to help people. Like, I'd love to hear a little bit about the decisions that you've made and, and how that archetype has helped kind of give you some guardrails to, to decide what to do next. Ben Patton: I think to kind of build off what Danielle said, it started to become abundantly clear to me, and this is what ultimately pushed me out of my, my [00:13:00] role at this last company, is that if I'm not having conversations, I feel like I'm suffocating, I guess that's a best way to say it. especially when I think of software work in the traditional sense, my job was, there's always this backlog of things to get done, and it's heads down, cranking out work, and not really interacting with people outside of maybe your standup or something, or something. And so the initial assessment and then our, our conversations, uh, that was one thing that for, for whatever reason, it took it a while to set in, and I think it's probably just from the 30 years of thinking work had to look a specific way, uh, was that I needed to find ways of just having more conversations with people. and so, I kind of took it to an extreme to a degree. Like at work, I was like, "Okay, I can't have conversations in my day-to-day with people. Let me just have conversations with Claude," 'cause [00:14:00] so, so that at least it feels like I'm verbal processing or something. And that helped for a time. what that has done for me more so in, Well, okay, you mentioned the conversation we had in the fall. Right after our str- our strategy call, I led a workshop, uh, with a ministry I used to work for through Working Genius, and I r- I recognized in that c- that, environment that when I was trying to lead a group of people to an outcome or whatever it was, I was really drained, even though I have experience facilitator. But when I ha- when somebody had a question and I was able to address them specifically, they were both served really powerfully, and then everybody else in the room kind of got, you know, think of sparks flying. They g- they got the, added benefit of m-me talking to that person. and so that was, that was really clarifying. That was really helpful to see. And then over the past, I guess now it's been six months, where this really has [00:15:00] crept in and I've seen additional pieces. I think my, I think I, I've thought a lot about the results I got, uh, and because my third one is, uh, what's it? Macy Robison: Principal practitioner, yep Ben Patton: practi- practitioner. I've found that I only gravitate towards like offering help to people in places where I know I've been. And so, another coaching community we're in, somebody led a workshop through Claude Cowork and a lot of their advice to people in there w- was kinda coming around with like, uh, just use AI, ask AI, just ask. And I was coming in with specific help for people, and another member who you, um, Madi, recommended I help just try to have conversations with people around it. And I ended up having somewhere between 15 and 20 conversations around just helping people, with... They're overwhelmed, like where do I start? And helping them, adopt it in some way. And that was, that was really fun. [00:16:00] So, uh, that just the point of just offering to people to have a conversation and then people being interested in this place that I've been to help them, to your question, original question. if I'm not having conversations, I just kind of sit here and, and think about who I could be having conversations with anyway. So it's just like, oh, I need to go talk to this person or, you know, so. Macy Robison: Well, and I love that, and in the story that you told about being in the group but the one-on-one was the thing that energized you, that was what allowed me to even get to the point where I could offer a group program, is thinking about it as a one-on-one group hybrid. 'Cause I didn't feel like for the longest time I could do any of the work that I was doing outside of a one-on-one container. Someone challenged me on that, and I, again, going back to music, which is my lived experience, thought, "Well, I guess I could..." If it was like a... Like in college, I took private voice lessons leading up to college, but then I had to do master classes. And at first I was like, "This is a waste of time on a Tuesday night." Like, I have to go sit and [00:17:00] listen to other people sing, and I get to sing, I don't know, a couple times a semester. But I learned more watching other people sing and hearing my teacher instruct them, to your point about your, you know, working genius. People were hearing you answer those one-on-one questions, and they were learning 'cause they were reflecting. There's something really powerful about that kind of container. Even if transformational guide is first, like, that's something to potentially think about in terms of building toward. But I love that you've just kind of figured things out and given yourself permission to test, and it's given you a, a new direction. At least that's been my observation watching it. Does that match your experience in terms of the patterns that you're seeing for yourself? Ben Patton: Yeah. And I think Hearing, um, Danielle share, the, the area of struggle I've noticed is I've tried to turn I think, I think where I have to do a lot more reflection, , as a transformational guide, like having it so high is asking, "Okay, what are the outcomes people are receiving?" 'Cause [00:18:00] the, the value I know is provided in the one-on-one, the, the conversation itself. But when it's come to taking the, the work I did with people and trying to then turn around and offer it to others without a clear... This is at least my current assessment. I've made the offer to many people, and all of them have been no. I think it's because I, I've, I've just offered it as like, " Have a great conversation," rather than, "This is what you get out of it." So that's where I'm, I, that's, I've come back to that now to say, "Okay, I do need to figure out how to actually quantify some pieces of what the conversation does for people." Macy Robison: Yeah. I, I'm glad you surfaced that, 'cause I think that's one of the things that is a feature, not a bug, of this particular archetype. And strategic advisor, it's kind of a similar one, which is you can see the transformation that needs to happen in the conversation. You have the ability to meet people right where they are. You take them to a place [00:19:00] that they weren't expecting to go, and you probably weren't even expecting to take them just because of... And, you know, Danielle, you'd said that, too, in, in the conversation that you had. Like, the person reflected back to you like, "I didn't think this was where that was gonna go." And I think that's something all three of us hear a lot. and it really is, like, kind of thinking about that as a constraint to work with, to be creative around, how do I market this? Because it does feel like lightning in a bottle, but if you weren't there to see the lightning in the bottle, how do you, like, describe it to other people? So a lot of us with this archetype do have referral-based businesses and do need to be pretty disciplined, which I'm not always, about getting testimonials for our work so those results are apparent. one of the things that I've tried to do is, like, use AI as a contrast to say, "Here's what they were saying in the first conversation with me. Here's what they said in the last conversation with me. What are the patterns that are emerging in those, containers?" [00:20:00] And that's been really helpful for me to kind of uncover some of the, the problems that people, people came to me to solve and what ended up being solved. But, I'd love to hear, you know, Danielle, you've been sitting with this a little bit longer, as far as an archetype, than Ben has, but I would love to hear maybe how that has worked for you in terms of figuring out what the result is, or if you're just... It sounds like you're just kind of offering the container and the conversation and you know you're gonna get there, but can you speak into that a little bit more in terms of how you've addressed that issue? Danielle Boronowski: Yeah. When I was taking some notes as, um, I, I've been taking some notes as we've been talking, and one of the phrases that I've been using, the last few months is, "Let's test it for science." And I think that's one thing that I hear, Macy, in your community a lot, uh, is Just try, like just try it, right? Like it's all good feedback, whether it w- worked, I'm air quoting here, like whether it was successful in reaching the goal that we wanted, or whether we just learned something [00:21:00] and got some hypotheses, like Ben, you said, I, I, I think this is why. Um, just trying it, like whatever the, the, the thing is, and I think it, uh, so, so like tapping back Macy too, to like the hybrid group and individual, there is... Whether you have the same archetype as me or not, there is so much it, uh, when I'm sitting on calls with people in other archetypes or you're coaching, I, I'm thinking about that. Like, what does that mean for me? Or what does that spark for me? And then that gives me this, let's try something for science sort of a thing. Um, as I think about the, the last year of my business, a year ago, I went on a Delulu sprint, which is a whole 'nother episode to talk about, but I had the best quarter that I'd had in my business maybe ever, if not in a very long time. Not just financially, but energetically. I think that was what I, would make me say it was the best in my business, energetically and financially. and so I had this great momentum, and then I hit a [00:22:00] little bit of a slump, and some of that I'm starting to realize with reflection is that I just have seasons in my own, just, just in life, right? Where I'm just not as, as... I hate the winter, and I think my business is, uh, you know, imp- is impacted in that way, and that's okay. but I realized, um, actually, and this was a Macy prompt, last fall when I was kind of going into this sort of a, a little bit of a slowdown was Macy said, "Have you ever done your offer on yourself?" And I was like, " No." And she was like, "You should try that." And I did, and it was insanely valuable, for my business. So what I found, um, I thought it would be... Like I t- truly treated myself like a client. So I had client Danielle and strategist Danielle, and I would sort of put on these different hats, and what I found was that even as a marketing strategist who wrote this strategy, client Danielle was overwhelmed by what strategist Danielle delivered, and that absolutely blew my mind. and so it changed how [00:23:00] I thought about, you know, I, I, how I thought about my delivery and how I thought about my offer and how I thought about what my clients were experiencing, and I was able to adjust it. And I am coming up now on a little, I'd say a year and a half of having a relatively consistent offer and I've never had this before. I've been like throwing spaghetti at the wall on some different, in different versions of my offer for seven years now. Uh, or you know, five and a half years leading up to this. And so I feel like I'm in a different place also because I've had my offer for so long, and I don't feel like I'm figuring out my offer anymore, but I'm getting to really use my archetype and what I know about myself and what I know about my clients and what, the results that people are getting to just continue to refine and hone it and make it better and better. Like every strategy, every roadmap, every ongoing work partnership with someone is better and better. and it's just been really, really [00:24:00] cool to be able to apply that. and to just to, to be patient, to te- like again, like I said at the beginning, like to test it for science. Like I feel like that takes some pressure off. Like I had this idea, instead of going all in and building something, I'm just gonna try it for a short amount of time and see what happens and get that feedback. And that's been, I, I think in partnership with this, has been a game changer for how I'm running my business. Macy Robison: I love that. I think, the thing that this has been a gift for me in running it on myself is there are so many decisions that you have to make as someone who's running a business, uh, and who is the face of your business. It just really can feel overwhelming, and if you can give yourself any kind of constraints for creation, that, that really is helpful. It's not meant to be limiting. It's meant to give you the opportunity. You've- You know, when you're running a test for science, you've got some sort of control thing you're always keeping consistent, and then you've got the variables that you're trying to figure out. I'm doing the wrong science words. Science was not my thing. It was music, as everyone knows. But, [00:25:00] um, the- that's the thing I'm hearing you kind of talk through is, like, I've got something now that is consistent, and so I can start pulling some of these other levers over here, Ben, I'd love to ask you, like, just in terms of, of knowing this, now that you've got this result, you're kind of about to start doing a whole bunch of things. But I would love to hear just in terms of having this wiring, having this archetype as, as part of the decision-making, I guess framing that you've got as you step into running your business and, and stepping away from a W2 to test all of this. I would love to hear something you're, something you're trying or maybe something you're maybe gonna think of stop doing, stopping doing as we're having this conversation about transformational guides today. Ben Patton: Yeah. I think what has helped me start to at least come to a unifying message around what I'm trying to help people with, and I think this is from these, all these conversations with people, is [00:26:00] I think by and large for, it's, it's too hard for people to do the work they want to do. and that's a, a core deep-rooted belief I have. Uh, and for many of them, they don't know who they are to then know the work they want to do. And so, Where that comes in with, with AI and where I've kind of brought back these pieces together is there was a version of Ben, and this is where "Working Genius" has tend to have been, so powerful to people, is, I just kind of accepted at one point that work was just gonna be miserable, uh, 'cause that was just kind of the, the narrative and there's all sorts of, phrases and goodwill that people try to offer to, to just grit through and do, do the, the hard thing. but then "Working Genius" kind of gives this, this language of joy versus frustration. Not, work is gonna be sunshine and rainbows all the time, but, like, you [00:27:00] can have joy in what you do. And, uh, you, you talked about this some on a recent podcast, I think, of struggling or having frustration of tenacity. Macy Robison: Yes Ben Patton: Uh, same. And, uh, what that led me down was think- uh, was finally coming to the, the point of the personality assessments and, Working Genius, these are, well, the personality assessments always felt meaningful, but Working Genius kind of, I guess, put the puzzle together to say, how do these things now actually work together as relates to the work you do? So full circle, I've come back to AI is something people really need help with. having the experience I've had with working for a company building infrastructure for AI, not just an AI company, where I'm coming at it is to help people because I can see them for who they are. That's, I think my gifting in the transformational guide zone is seeing people for, [00:28:00] for who they are, their actual frustrations, what, what they want to do. When I have a conversation with them, I'm so attuned to the part of the, the phrase that, or any words they use where they're s- they're stuck or they're struggling, or they have disbelief. one of the clients I helped, in the free, free call was, his phrase was literally he believed AI was a net negative. I wasn't trying to change his belief. That's not my goal. It was to just say, " Where are you struggling right now? What is something you do day to day And, and how can we then apply something to that? So, it's really been a, I mean, I think transformational guide is kind of the, the thread through all of that, of I so deeply want to see people do the things that, uh, use their time how they want to use it, uh, do the work they want to do, have joy in their work. and that comes through in the conversation, and AI just kind of [00:29:00] happens to be something I have experience with that people need. But the really underneath that, I'm, the serving, the service is self-awareness, uh, for them of doing more of what they want to do. Macy Robison: At the end of the day, a lot of this archetype is really about giving people permission to transform in the way that they want to. I think just to kind of finish up, , would love to have each of you share, and I can go first, - Something that you're doing, doing differently I guess the example I would give, , as something I'm doing differently just because of this knowledge now how I'm wired, , I know that we talked about this before we started recording, but I have to record every call. And it's not because I'm not good at taking notes. It's because if the conversation is the magic thing, and I can then go back and look at it, I can actually provide even more value if I capture the words that I'm saying or the words that my clients are saying so we can [00:30:00] actually do something with them after the fact. And a lot of the things I talk about on the podcast and a lot of the coaching I'm able to do and the IP and the book I'm working on, , I talked about this, , in a podcast earlier with, with Dustin Riechmann, not a transformational guide, but an experienced facilitator, that's still about transformation. He's writing a book, and just giving him permission to say like, "All the words I'm gonna put in this book I've already said. I just have to get them out of the recording." So that's something that I do differently now that I, kind of insist on as a part of my wiring to make sure I can be an example of that and live into that when I'm on calls and in conversations with people. That's one thing that's functional that I'm doing differently. So I would love for each of you to r- maybe reflect on that. Someone who has maybe just taken the assessment and they see transformational guide, what is one thing you would tell them to do or piece of advice you would give them in terms of maybe experimenting or trying something different that has been helpful for you [00:31:00] to stay in that mindset of a transformational guide? And I'll come to you first, Danielle, if that's okay. It could be, like, really practical, like I just shared about recording calls, or it could be whatever comes to mind. But something that you would say, "Oh, you just took the test? You're a transformational guide? Here's what I've learned." What would the answer to that question be? Danielle Boronowski: Honey, all of this is just working out beautifully. So this is some notes again that I just took a couple of minutes ago as y'all-- as you and Ben were talking, and I think that this fits perfectly is, uh, that... And, and you touched on this a little bit, Macy. As a transformational guide, you are the, the product, right? Or the service typically. we are coaches, we are consultants. People are paying for our expertise, our knowledge, our wisdom. And that's hard, especially, uh, it's hard to sell that, right? Like, trust me. Like, I, I feel like I've said that before. Like I, I, I can't articulate exactly what this is gonna look like because it is a custom solution, but, but trust me. You know? [00:32:00] Or my guarantee is that, I'm gonna keep working with you until you get the result you want, but I don't know what that looks like, you know? Or after a 30-minute call with somebody, they're like, "What do you think I should do?" I have no idea. I don't know in 30 minutes. I gotta deep dive into your business, but I know I can help you. We're gonna work through it together. So, so... But I can't just walk around and be like, "Hey, check out here for Danielle's brain." Like that's-- it doesn't work like that, right? And so I think that that's one place where I have encountered resistance and, and I feel like it came up this morning in the conversation I had before this, you know, this recording, and that I just wanna surface. It, it's kind of surfacing for me, but also a reminder, like selling yourself is hard. And so I think when you think about being a transformational guide and articulating what it is that you offer, it's v-- it is that transformation. So, you know, I think that the default for us a lot of times is like, "Okay, I'm gonna give you seven playbooks, and we're gonna meet every other week, and this is what's gonna happen." And people don't care about that. Not that they don't care, but that's like the messy, you know, that's how the sausage is made, and they [00:33:00] don't want that. What they wanna know is how they're gonna feel at the end. So I feel like if you've just taken the assessment and you're like, "Okay, I'm a transformational guide," like what... I, I can see how I can start to build that internally or personally in my business, but what does that mean for the sales and the forward-facing side of things? I think that's what I would, would call out is look at the end and talk about the feeling and the experience and what we're gonna overcome together. Don't talk about what you're gonna do together because that's-- they just wanna get to there. And that's, that's very story brand, you know, customer is the hero, the-- we're the guide, um, sort of language. But I think that that's very applicable in a transformational s- guide sales and business environment Macy Robison: Oh, I love that you said that, 'cause I think we build the thing we need, and I know for a fact that a lot of the things that we talk about on this podcast, and even this conversation today, have been like, that is something I've genuinely struggled with. And even in recently, like reselling the group program that we talked about a minute ago, the conservatory, like [00:34:00] I had to redo the sales page, and I just didn't know what to say. Like I know what I'd been saying, but it wasn't converting, and I finally just talked to a couple clients and tried to understand what that transformation felt like. And a couple of the things that came back were, "Man, I keep working with you because you give me permission to... make it feel possible to make money being exactly who I am." But that feeling of, of transformation, of what's possible, we don't know the exact path, but we know, we're gonna take this step, this step, and this step, and we're going to get there. Those steps might... Will be personalized to you, I think is something that's been helpful for me. So, , Ben, same question. , Would love to hear, , if someone has just taken this, they see transformational guide, is there a lesson that you've learned or a tactic you can share that has been helpful in embracing this and, and, and helping grow your business that you're launching? Ben Patton: Kind of to what Danielle just said, and this is the, a, a [00:35:00] larger point I think we've, we've made many times is even in this conversation, I think all of us transformational guides have learned something. You know, like, and, and to what she just said, like I realize now on my, my coaching, like the initial offer I sent out, it was the how-tos, which I kept coming back to thinking I just don't have clear enough how-tos rather than leaning more into the, uh, I mean, the testimonies kind of give it away of they were overwhelmed and now they're not. Like, like, and so I guess the big point there is, as a transformational guide, the sooner you can put yourselves, yourself in a place where you can have conversations, whether that's going to events, whether that's sitting at tables with people or scheduling calls, I think the more Fulfilled is a okay word, but the [00:36:00] more your path, I guess, is just gonna start to unfold before you, uh, to some degree. Uh, ' cause I hesitated for a really long time, not because I was, I didn't believe what Macy said, but I was, I just kept looking around me and assuming that what other people were doing was, like, the path. Uh, and, it never worked for me, so I don't know why I kept trying to pay attention to what they, what they were doing. Um, and then, uh, a really practical one for me, which I kind of mentioned earlier, was, having, having Whisperflow to just do everything through conversation. I'm not saying, I'm not endorsing, don't... I'm not saying go buy Whisperflow, but have some way of turning thoughts, into words. because the more I'm... I've found for me specifically, the more I try to think hard, the more I just kind of end up nowhere. But the more I, I speak, the more, the faster the quicker I get to clarity. So, finding ways to just [00:37:00] a-adopt, like, put more conversation into your day-to-day is crucial, I think. Macy Robison: I love that advice. I will say get Whisperflow. I, um, that's, uh, that's been... It's been pretty game changing for me. But I love that bigger concept there that you're uncovering with that specific tool, which is, there is something about getting an opportunity to talk through a problem, even if it's... If you start with AI. I think that's the thing that's been a really great unlock for me specifically, is I can use it as a thought partner and a mirror, and it gets me a little bit closer to having more confidence when I do get into a real conversation where real results are, are expected or hoped for. And sometimes we don't give ourselves enough credit for the abilities that our brains have and the opportunities that we have to unlock, problems that people have just because of how we're specifically wired, and giving ourselves permission to do so, I think, is the first step, and both of you are just [00:38:00] doing that beautifully, and I really appreciate you being in conversation about this today. I would love to, just to kind of wrap up today, have you share where people can find out a little bit more about you. You've talked a little bit about some of the things you offer, but, would love to give you an opportunity to have people download something or, or follow you somewhere. Danielle, I'll start with you, and then Ben. Danielle Boronowski: Well, um, my favorite, um, online space to hang out is LinkedIn. so people can connect with me there. And, um, I love giving you permission to stop doing things. So, um, if there is anybody who, uh, feels like they have been trying all the marketing... I mean, Ben just said it, like, "It works for them, so I thought it would work for me." Um, that's a, you know, something that I've certainly heard before with clients. So if anybody just wants to have a, an experience, just a conversation, like, I'll find something in your business in a 30-minute call you can stop doing. And man, when you walk away, like, "Sh- I mean, I don't have to Face- post on [00:39:00] Facebook anymore?" Like, oof, it's freeing. So, um, if you want to stop doing something but don't know what it is, I would love to talk. Macy Robison: Love that. Ben, how about you? Ben Patton: Yeah. I'm also on LinkedIn. but similar, I-- there, there are two things that I'm deeply passionate about helping see happen in people. and one of those is, within an hour conversation, if you're experiencing like you don't know why you're having frustration and anxiety, I can give you clarity on that as it relates to your work. and then, uh, with AI, if you go to benapatton.com, you can see everything there around, how I'm helping people, the testimonies I have for, those I've worked with so far. and I'd love to, to make AI specific to you and your business and, the path to adoption there clear. Macy Robison: I love that. Thank you so much, both of you. Appreciate your time, and we'll see everyone next [00:40:00] week What I heard over and over in that conversation, and again as I was editing this, is that all three of us do our best work in a conversation. And that same thing is what makes this archetype hard to describe to someone who was not in the room with us. I loved Danielle's story about the get-to-know-you call that ended up turning into a paid client interaction. She could hear where the other person was stuck. She asked permission before sharing what she was seeing, and then she made the invitation to keep working together easy to say yes to. And Ben was so honest about the other side of it. He's made his offer to a lot of people, and they've been saying no. And his read on why is that he was offering a great conversation, but people don't know what to do with a conversation, and he hadn't yet named what the conversation does for someone, what it makes them feel, some of the things that Danielle was talking about. People don't often want to buy the process, they want to buy the transformation. And because the transformation and the conversation feels so easy to many of us as transformational guides, [00:41:00] we don't think about the end result. We want to prove that the process works. When, if we would just focus on the transformation that's in the name of our archetype, those conversations would go so much more effortlessly. So here are two things I would take with you if transformational guide is your archetype. First, put yourself where conversations happen. Ben said that when he isn't having conversations, he feels a little bit like he's suffocating. And if that sounds familiar, it's worth designing your week around. Go to the event, sit at the table, schedule the call, and then record it, because the thing that you said that everyone loved is almost never something you can say again, but you can use that as content, as something to think about, as maybe part of your underlying diagnostic process that you walk people through to get the transformations that you're providing. Second, sell where people are showing up. Danielle's advice to talk about how people are going to feel at the end, what you're going to overcome together, instead of walking them through the [00:42:00] playbooks and the meeting schedule. When I rewrote that sales page for the conservatory, the words I needed came from asking a couple of my clients what actually changed for them. You can find Danielle on LinkedIn, and if you'd like a 30-minute conversation of one of the things you can stop doing in your business, she would love to have that with you. Ben is on LinkedIn too, and you can see a little bit more about how he's helping people with AI specifically at benapatton, P-A-T-T-O-N, .com. And if you don't know your archetype yet, the link to the assessment is in the show notes, or you can go to macyrobison.com/quiz